Stockhausen: Advice to Clever Children
Stockhausen: Advice to Clever Children
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Karlheinz Stockhausen
Advice to clever children...
Article from "The Wire", November 1995
Earlier this year, Radio 3 sent a package of tapes to Karlheinz
Stockhausen. The tapes contained music by Aphex Twin, Plasticman,
Scanner and Daniel Pemberton. Then in August, the station's reporter
Dick Witts travelled to Salzburg to meet Stockhausen and ask him for
his opinion on the music of these four "Technocrats". But first, they
talked about the German composer's own youthful experiments in
electronic synthesis...
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DW: When you started as a composer, how different were the conditions from
today?
KS: I studied music as a pianist, and learning all the traditional techniques
of composing, in an institution called Stadtliche Hofschule für
Musik. We had about ten disciplines to study: choir, orchestra,
conducting, piano was my main instrument, then musicology,
harmony and counterpoint. I wrote several works in traditional styles,
but also two works, so-called 'free compositions', one for orchestra
and alto voice, a work which is still available on CD called the Drei
Lieder. I started composing at the age of 20, 1948, the first time I
considered my music to be of some general importance, and they are
available, like the violin sonatina...
Why did you consider those works a beginning?
Because everything that could be studied with the professors at the
conservatory, the other students also were able to write. So there was
nothing special to write a fugue or to write a piece in the style of
Hindemith. But it was special to write something different from all
other composers. I wrote, for example a small theatre piece, Burleska,
together with two colleagues. We divided the piece into three parts.
My part did not sound as the newspapers said [of the other two parts] like
Orff, or like Hindemith, but different. So I was very proud that they said
my section did not sound 'like' something.
I Composed Kreuzspiel, or Crossplay [1951], and I knew when I wrote
it that it would sound like nothing else in the world. People were
quite upset when they heard it for the first time at the national summer
courses for contemporary music in Darmstadt, where I conducted the
piece; it was violently interrupted by the public. And since then I
have composed works from one to the next, always waiting until I've
found something that I had never imagined before, or that sounded like
anything existing.
Can you hear a line, a unity, in everything you've written, from Kreuzspiel
to Licht?
Many lines; depends on which level. For example, space exploration in music
is one line, then sound- and word-relationship is another line, from the
beginning until today, then the discovery of polyphony in many-layered
composition is another line ; and that is what is essential, the discovery of
sounds which are derived from formulas for particular compositions. That goes
from the very first electronic studies until my very last works which I have
just finished, which I call electronic music with sound-scenes for Friday From
Light, which is two hours 25 minutes of music which I work on in the electronic
music studio in Cologne. this is another line. Then the development from
serial technique to formula technique is again another line. So it depends
just where you touch my musical mind, and I will show you how many, many
lines are running in parallel and crossing each other constantly in different
compositions.
Going back to Kreuzspiel - that was around the time you first started using
technology...
Yes. 1952 I started working in the studio for musique concrete, of the French
radio. Because I was very intrigued by the possibility to compose one's own
sound. I was allowed to work in the studio of Pierre Schaeffer: I made
artificial sounds, synthetic sounds, and I composed my first Etude: Etude
Concrte. At the same time, I was extremely curious, and went to the muse de
L'homme in Paris with a tape recorder and microphones, and I recorded all the
different instruments of the ethnological department: Indonesian instruments,
Japanese instruments, Chinese instruments; less European instruments because
I knew them better, but even piano sounds... Then I analysed these sounds one
by one, and wrote down the frequencies which I found and the dynamic level of
the partials of the spectra, in order to know what the sound is made of, what
the sound is, as a matter of fact; what is the difference between a lithophone
sound or, let's say, a Thai gong sound of a certain pitch. And very slowly I
discovered the nature of sounds. The idea to analyse sounds gave me the idea
synthesize sounds. so then I was looking for synthesizers or the first
electronic generators, and I superimposed vibrations in order to compose
spectra: timbres. I do this now, still, after 43 years.
Have things got easier for you?
No. really not. The last three weeks I just spent every day in the studio,
eight hours, working with a new digital technique with a Capricorn mixing
console, the newest one, from Siemens, or the English Nieve Nicam, from
Cambridge, and two 24 channel Sony tape recorders, one being the leader and
one running in slave, in order to make very special movements in space... And
I must tell you that out of eight hours per day I waited seven hours without
any result, because the technicians, sound engineers, didn't know how to deal
with these instruments, and had never encountered problems which I had
imposed. So it is becoming more difficult for me.
I wonder to what extent your fascination with technology helps you as a
composer, and to what extent your frustration with it helps you?
[Tragic] I don't know how to go on. No matter how difficult it is. Very often
I am quite desperate.
You say your music speaks of the essential unity of the universe; I wonder
how you came to this realisation, and how it speaks through the music?
Well, I didn't come to it. That is the oldest tradition of all music styles,
music cultures on this planet. The beginning of every art music development,
in China, or in India or in European monasteries was always to relate the art
of shaping composing sounds with the art [by which] the stars are shaped and
composed. Astronomy, mathematics and music were the highest disciplines
throughout the centuries since the beginning of European art music in the
monasteries, let's say in the tenth until the 14th, 15th century...
I have studied all music of Europe as a student - I had to - and I at a very
early age became aware, also naturally, [that] certain music, like
the Art Of The Fuge by Johann Sebastian Bach or the Musikalishe Opfer,
[has] always known about this relationship between the laws of the universe,
astronomical laws, and the laws of the music of this Earth. For example,
I admire very much the music of Anton Von Webern, who is practically not
known by the large public today. But he studied Senfi, composer of the
renaissance, German composer who also knew the isorhythmic Motette,
the technique of isorhythms, and Webern was very, very aware, as a
collector of very strange plants, he always went on the mountains, in the
Alps, to collect the most beautiful and loneliest plants in the world, and
dried them. And his music is like that: he knew that the same laws which
ruled the inner life of atoms and galaxies applied to the music. To the
art music.
Can we talk about the music we sent you? It was very good of you to listen to
it. I wonder if you could give some advice to these musicians.
I wish those musicians would not allow themselves any repetitions, and would
go faster in developing their ideas or their findings, because I don't
appreciate at all this permanent repetitive language. It is like someone
who is stuttering all the time, and can't get words out of his mouth.
I think musicians should have very concise figures and not rely on this
fashionable psychology. I don't like psychology whatsoever: using music
like a drug is stupid. One shouldn't do that : music is the product of the
highest human intelligence, and of the best senses, the listening senses
and of imagination and intuition. And as soon as it becomes just a means for
ambiance, as we say, environment, or for being used for certain purposes,
then music becomes a whore, and one should not allow that really; one
should not serve any existing demands or in particular not commercial values.
That would be terrible: that is selling out the music.
I heard the piece Aphex Twin of Richard James carefully: I think it would be
very helpful if he listens to my work Song Of The Youth, which is electronic
music, and a young boy's voice singing with himself. Because he would then
immediately stop with all these post-African repetitions, and he would look
for changing tempi and changing rhythms, and he would not allow to repeat
any rhythm if it were varied to some extent and if it did not have a direction
in its sequence of variations.
And the other composer - musician, I don't know if they call themselves
composers... They're sometimes called 'sound artists'... No, 'Technocrats',
you called them. He's called Plasticman, and in public, Richie Hawtin.
It starts with 30 or 40 - I don't know, I haven't counted them - fifths in
parallel, always the same perfect fifths, you see, changing from one to
the next, and then comes in hundreds of repetitions of one small section
of an African rhythm: duh-duh-dum, etc, and I think it would be helpful
if he listened to Cycle for percussion, which is only a 15 minute long piece
of mine for a percussionist, but there he will have a hell to understand
the rhythms, and I think he will get a taste for very interesting
non-metric and non-periodic rhythms. I know that he wants to have a
special effect in dancing bars, or wherever it is, on the public who
like to dream away with such repetitions, but he should be very careful,
because the public will sell him out immediately for something else,
if a new kind of musical drug is on the market. So he should be very careful
and separate as soon as possible from the belief in this kind of public.
The other is Robin Rimbaud, Scanner, I've heard, with radio noises. He is
very experimental, because he is searching in a realm of sound which is
not usually used for music. But I think he should transform more what he
finds. He leaves it too much in a raw state. He has a good sense of
atmosphere, but he is too repetitive again. So let him listen to my work
Hymnen. There are found objects - a lot like he finds with his scanner,
you see. But I think he should learn from the art of transformation,
so that what you find sounds completely new, as I sometimes say, like an apple
on the moon.
Then there's another one: Daniel Pemberton. His work which I heard has noise
loops: he likes loops, a loop effect, like in musique concrete, where I worked
in 1952, and Pierre Henry and Schaeffer himself, they found some sounds,
like say the sounds of a casserole, they made a loop, and then they transposed
this loop. So I think he should give up this loop; it is too oldfashioned.
Really. He likes train rhythms, and I think when he comes to a soft spot,
a quiet, his harmony sounds to my ears like ice cream harmony. It is so
kitchy; he should stay away from these ninths and sevenths and tenths in
parallel: so, look for a harmony that sounds new and sounds like Pemberton
and not like anything else. He should listen to Kontakte, which has among
my works the largest scale of harmonic, unusual and very demanding harmonic
relationships. I like to tell the musicians that they should learn from works
which already gone through a lot of temptations and have refused to give in
to these stylistic or to these fashionable temptations...
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Portions of this interview were broadcast on Radio 3 in October as
part of the Technocrats mini series, which examined Stockhausen's
musical legacy. This partially edited transcript is printed here [the
WIRE, Nov. 1995] courtesy of Radio 3 and Soundbite Productions. The
music which Stockhausen was commenting on included "Ventolin" and
"Alberto Balsam" by Aphex Twin, Plasticman's Sheet One album,
"Micrographia", "Dimension" and "Discreet" by Scanner, and "Phoenix",
Phosphine", Novelty Track" and "Voices" by Daniel Pemberton.
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Advice from clever children...
Following Stockhausen's advice to our Technocrats, we decided to play
them excerpts from the compositions which the German composer
suggested they listen to and learn from. Here's what they had to
say...
Aphex Twin on Song Of The Youth
Mental! I've heard that song before; I like it. I didn't agree with
him. I thought he should listen to a couple of tracks of mine:
"Didgeridoo", then he'd stop making abstract, random patterns you
can't dance to. Do you reckon he can dance? You could dance to Song of
the Youth, but it hasn't got a groove in it, there's no bassline. I
know it was probably made in the 50s, but I've got plenty of wicked
percussion records made in the 50s that are awesome to dance to. And
they've got basslines. I could remix it: I don't know about making it
better; I wouldn't want to make it into a dance version, but I could
probably make it a bit more anally technical. But I'm sure he could
these days, because tape is really slow. I used to do things like that
with tape, but it does take forever, and I'd never do anything like
that again with tape. Once you've got your computer sorted out, it
pisses all over stuff like that, you can do stuff so fast. It has a
different sound, but a bit more anal.
I haven't heard anything new by him; the last thing was a vocal
record, Stimmung, and I didn't really like that. Would I take his
comments to heart? The ideal thing would be to meet him in a room and
have a wicked discussion. For all I know, he could be taking the piss.
It's a bit hard to have a discussion with someone via other people.
I don't think I care about what he thinks. It is interesting, but it's
disappointing, because you'd imagine he'd say that anyway. It wasn't
anything surprising. I don't know anything about the guy, but I
expected him to have that sort of attitude. Loops are good to dance
to...
He should hang out with me and my mates: that would be a laugh. I'd be
quite into having him around.
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Scanner on Hymnen
It's interesting that I've not heard this before, and maybe Thomas
Kener hasn't and so on, but you can relate it to our work. I don't
know whether it's conscious or not. I was two years old when this was
written! Stockhausen says he don't like repetitions: what I like about
repetition is it can draw the listener and lull you into a false sense
of security, but when it gets too abstract - this is cut-ups - I find
it very difficult to digest over a long period of time. He's a lapsed
Catholic, and there's the sense that it's meant to be a religious
experience passing through these records, like a purging of the
system. Whether you like it or not, you're affected in one way or
another. I'd like to hear this live.
I prefer the gentler passages. I do find myself irritated by that
barrage of sound against sound over a long period of time: an
alternative kind of repetition. That's why I like Jim O'Rourke's work,
because it works over long periods.
I wonder about him putting himself into the recording; is it a vanity
thing, or part of the process? With the scanner, it's like live
editing, which is like this as well. When you scan, if you don't like
something you flick between frequencies, when you DJ you cut between
records, and it is an art form as a form of live editing...
Reminds me of the Holger Czukay LP Der Osten Ist Rot, cutting between
national anthems, like tuning through a radio: I don't know whether
this is actually happening or not. this is very good actually - better
than I expected. At the end there's a recording of him breathing. It's
quite uncomfortable - like being inside his head.
I take some of what he said about my music to heart. Part of what I'm
interested in is transforming material. Lots of the sounds I use are
off the scanner or the shortwave radio. Lots of people wouldn't
realise that sometimes a bass sound isn't a keyboard bass sound: it's
a little blip on the phone. So I do try and transform the material as
much as possible. I disagree about repetition: I think, as John Cage
said, repetition is a form of change, and it's a concept you either
agree or disagree with. I like repetitions; I like Richie Hawtin's
work for that very aspect. In a way it is like a religious experience:
if his work is about spirituality, then this is a kind of alternative,
non-religious spirituality, where you're drawn in by this block of
rhythm; it's an incredible feeling, the way it moves you physically,
and moves you in a dancefloor as well.
Things like this are designed to be listened to over long periods of
time, and sometimes I think it could do with some editing. Most
contemporary sound artists are working within a four to ten minute
time scale, basically. And to be honest, for most people that's
enough.
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Daniel Pemberton on Kontakte
At first I expected someone hitting a piano randomly, but there were
happenings in there, with stereo panning and effects. I was very
impressed considering the time it was done: the 1960s. He was going on
about how everyone's stuff was repetitive, but his stuff is the
complete opposite: so unrepetitive that it never really got anywhere.
Not necessarily a bad thing, but it didn't have any development in it:
sounded like an Old School FSOL. When he recommends Kontakte for its
"very demanding harmonic relationships", it sounds a bit suspect to
me: the whole piece seems to be dealing far more with timbre than with
harmonic relationship. It's obviously based around sound, and any
harmonics on there, to the non-musical ear, sound like a piano hit
randomly. It would be very good to put some HipHop breaks under,
actually.
What he said about me was quite funny: he accuses me of old hat... I
was born in 1977, 25 after [Kontakte], a longer time than I've lived.
I'm still learning musical history. If my whole career goes down the
pan, at least I've got a future with Mr Whippy! And for him to call
eigths, ninth and tenths 'kitschy'! The scales I commonly use aren't
too adventurous, but that's because they're the ones that sound nice.
The stuff I've done which is unlistenable, I haven't released because
no one would enjoy it.
It's good to have other people's views. I ignore them in the sense
that I know what I want to do: his criticisms won't make me throw
everything away and start working with bizarre new scales and
fantastic new instruments. I know what he means about loops though;
that's because I haven't got much equipment.
Get a chewn, mate! I think he should develop his music a bit more. Try
and repeat some of the ideas, work on them, build them up; you can
still change them. He should listen to a track off my forthcoming
album, Homemade. Stockhausen should experiment more with standard
melodies, try and subvert them; he should stop being so afraid of the
normal: by being so afraid of the normal he's being normal himself by
being the complete opposite. He should try to blend the two together:
that would be new and interesting. To me, anyway.
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Interviews by Rob Young. Richie Hawtin was not awailable for his
comments on Zyklus.
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"...the times they are a'changin'..."
If you really know Stockhausen, the work, the writings and so on, it becomes
obvious that the artists critiqued and responding are not of his ilk. These
artists are involved in commerce and not in experimentation in the ture sense.
Whithout the pioneering efforts of Stockhausen, none of what they do would be
possible. Is it merely the conceit of youth that does not comprehend this
fact? As contemporary music moves into the 21st Century context it becomes
quite interesting to ponder where the threads of Cage, Stockhausen, Boulez,
Webern and Xenakis will lead.
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